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View Poll Results: Do you think Zelda games need a more hardcore element?
Yes! It would keep me hooked! 1 12.50%
No! I would be angry all the time! 7 87.50%
Voters: 8. You may not vote on this poll

Do you think Zelda games need a hardcore element other than simply a Master Quest?
Old 05-05-2014, 06:13 PM
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Default Do you think Zelda games need a hardcore element other than simply a Master Quest?

Personally, I would be sold on Zelda games if they had the option to make a hardcore save.

By this, I mean that having a hardcore save means once you die, you're dead for good, and, you can't resume your quest on that save; in other words, you start over, just like Diablo and games similar to it.

They should have this option for both regular and Master Quest; the difference between softcore Master Quest and hardcore Master Quest is how persistent traps and enemies are.

If anything, a hardcore save should encourage players to be more careful with enemies and traps. It should also encourage players to carry more healing items and be more choice with them.
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Old 05-05-2014, 07:05 PM
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It would be nice if they made a harder difficulty available at the beginning before you start the game.

There are ways to up the challenge if you desire (ex. don't pick up heart pieces/containers).

A "hardcore" save is interesting but I don't see a reason to implement it into the game officially.

Drafting a "Nuzlocke Challenge" for the Zelda games would be sufficient for fans seeking to challenge themselves further.
Old 05-05-2014, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinvara View Post
It would be nice if they made a harder difficulty available at the beginning before you start the game.

There are ways to up the challenge if you desire (ex. don't pick up heart pieces/containers).

A "hardcore" save is interesting but I don't see a reason to implement it into the game officially.

Drafting a "Nuzlocke Challenge" for the Zelda games would be sufficient for fans seeking to challenge themselves further.
Isn't the series hardcore already? i though anyone can play the Zelda series.....
Old 05-05-2014, 07:19 PM
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No, the games are fine just the way they are. They are not Elder Scrolls or anything, they are less action-packed and more adventure oriented games. Their goal is to suck you in their world, to makeyou feel like an explorer, not to torture you and make you an expert in combat.
The bosses need to be made somewhat harder and they need to start experimenting with the story a little bit, but not to make the game harder in general.
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Old 05-05-2014, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MimisMan View Post
They are not Elder Scrolls or anything, they are less action-packed and more adventure oriented games. Their goal is to suck you in their world, to makeyou feel like an explorer, not to torture you and make you an expert in combat.
I think you meant Dark Souls.
Old 05-05-2014, 07:34 PM
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I don't see the need for more "hardcore" challenges, but I would like an experience with less hand-holding, which hopefully is the direction they are going for after Link Between Worlds
Old 05-05-2014, 07:45 PM
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in my opinion, keeping enemy encounters and locations unique and interesting throughout the entirety of the game is more of a concern for the series right now than difficulty is. if there's new and engaging stuff going on, i can forgive it for being easy.
Old 05-05-2014, 07:48 PM
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Every Zelda game needs hero mode
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Old 05-05-2014, 08:03 PM
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No it doesn't need "Hardcore" labelled crap. What would be nice though, is MANDATORY New Game + or Second Quests...

New Game + - Restart the game from the beginning but keep ALL your items and stuff.

Second Quest - Start a new game after beating the first one, but now all the items, dungeons and such are in different locations. I would add an option to start with all your accumulated items or start from scratch.
Old 05-05-2014, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMoAbidi View Post
Personally, I would be sold on Zelda games if they had the option to make a hardcore save.

By this, I mean that having a hardcore save means once you die, you're dead for good, and, you can't resume your quest on that save; in other words, you start over, just like Diablo and games similar to it.

They should have this option for both regular and Master Quest; the difference between softcore Master Quest and hardcore Master Quest is how persistent traps and enemies are.

If anything, a hardcore save should encourage players to be more careful with enemies and traps. It should also encourage players to carry more healing items and be more choice with them.
I don't really see a purpose for a "hardcore mode" in Zelda. It doesn't make sense there. It works in games like Diablo because of a randomness factor that the game has (the loot for Diablo's case, the fact that the entire world is random for Minecraft, etc...), meaning that when you restart, there is the fact that not only are you starting over, you are also "rerolling the dice" so to speak. The levels are potentially different, and the items you find are potentially different, which creates the majority of the enjoyment from a hardcore mode".

Zelda however doesn't have that random element to it. Dungeons are predetermined and what you find will always be the same. There isn't much of a point there. Not to mention that the usual enjoyment of a zelda game is in the puzzle variety, story telling, and world exploration. None of which benefit from permadeath(unless the world is random, which again, it isn't).

That doesn't necessarily mean that I think there shouldn't be a hardcore mode, just that there is a reason "hardcore mode" exists, and those reasons don't really match with what Zelda is about.

EDIT: But going back to the idea of a more challenging zelda experience. Hero mode from Wind Waker did a great job at doing this. It kept the difficulty in a more challenging way more than any permadeath mode would ever do.
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Old 05-05-2014, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by banjo3dsie View Post
I don't really see a purpose for a "hardcore mode" in Zelda. It doesn't make sense there. It works in games like Diablo because of a randomness factor that the game has (the loot for Diablo's case, the fact that the entire world is random for Minecraft, etc...), meaning that when you restart, there is the fact that not only are you starting over, you are also "rerolling the dice" so to speak. The levels are potentially different, and the items you find are potentially different, which creates the majority of the enjoyment from a hardcore mode".

Zelda however doesn't have that random element to it. Dungeons are predetermined and what you find will always be the same. There isn't much of a point there. Not to mention that the usual enjoyment of a zelda game is in the puzzle variety, story telling, and world exploration. None of which benefit from permadeath(unless the world is random, which again, it isn't).

That doesn't necessarily mean that I think there shouldn't be a hardcore mode, just that there is a reason "hardcore mode" exists, and those reasons don't really match with what Zelda is about.

EDIT: But going back to the idea of a more challenging zelda experience. Hero mode from Wind Waker did a great job at doing this. It kept the difficulty in a more challenging way more than any permadeath mode would ever do.
I like what you are suggesting. Master Quest or Hero Mode is great, and, randomisation doesn't deter from permanent death character, however, make it such that you have only ONE LIFE and you have to be VERY CAREFUL that you don't die.

Master Quest or Hero Mode with perma death just makes it infinitely more interesting, because, survivability is what should matter and, if you're not careful, you die and start all over.

As I said, unlike softcore Hero Mode, enemies, traps, and bosses should be a little bit unforgiving in hardcore Hero Mode.
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Old 05-05-2014, 10:16 PM
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It would be like playing dark souls rather then a zelda game lol
Old 05-05-2014, 11:29 PM
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Reading some stuff here gave me some idea.

How about some sort of a rogue-like Zelda game?

It could be a procedurally generated map with procedurally generated dungeons on it. Also, since it's a rogue-like, a death would be permament. However, balancing the game around a permanent death would be something.

The idea would work better for a 2D Zelda rather than a 3D one I think.
Old 05-05-2014, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaborg View Post
Reading some stuff here gave me some idea.

How about some sort of a rogue-like Zelda game?

It could be a procedurally generated map with procedurally generated dungeons on it. Also, since it's a rogue-like, a death would be permament. However, balancing the game around a permanent death would be something.

The idea would work better for a 2D Zelda rather than a 3D one I think.
Kinda like Binding of Isaac?
Old 05-05-2014, 11:33 PM
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Kinda like Binding of Isaac?
Of course that title striked in my mind when I thought of that. However, a Zelda game is about different dungeons you have to find by yourself, and that could be a part of the rogue-like elements.

But how could puzzles be generated procedurally? I think that would be the problem.
Old 05-05-2014, 11:38 PM
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But how could puzzles be generated procedurally? I think that would be the problem.
Designing functions to generate some pretty standard puzzles like, say, block pushing puzzles or puzzles involving rotating platforms would be simple enough.

It's probably more of a matter of how long doing the same sorts of puzzles over and over would remain interesting. They're obviously not going to stay as novel or interesting as those created by hand would be.
Old 05-06-2014, 12:13 AM
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Just get rid of handholding and filler like they did in LBW and I will be happy.
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:25 AM
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Just get rid of handholding and filler like they did in LBW and I will be happy.
You actually played LBW?
Old 05-06-2014, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by MoMoAbidi View Post
I like what you are suggesting. Master Quest or Hero Mode is great, and, randomisation doesn't deter from permanent death character, however, make it such that you have only ONE LIFE and you have to be VERY CAREFUL that you don't die.

Master Quest or Hero Mode with perma death just makes it infinitely more interesting, because, survivability is what should matter and, if you're not careful, you die and start all over.

As I said, unlike softcore Hero Mode, enemies, traps, and bosses should be a little bit unforgiving in hardcore Hero Mode.
Issue being I don't think randomization could work in a modern zelda game. It can very easily work in a 2D Zelda game(Binding of Isaac) so if Link Between Worlds is a sign of Handheld Zelda's future, then heck yeah I'd love to see this kind of thing tried.

Actually I take that back, a 3D Legend of Zelda game with the ideas of Binding of Isaac would be interesting. Instead of puzzles/story, it focuses on great enemy/combat design and randomized loot. It'd also ditch the overworld to focus exclusively on dungeons...

Ok I'm stealing that last idea.
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Old 05-06-2014, 03:29 AM
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You actually played LBW?
What? Of course I did.
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Old 05-06-2014, 04:07 AM
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What? Of course I did.
You actually finished a game. I'm so proud.
Old 05-06-2014, 03:59 PM
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I think you meant Dark Souls.
No, I meant games like skyrim and stuff. Dark Souls is too hard to even be compared.
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Old 05-12-2014, 12:08 PM
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I don't think it would be needed, but I'd still play it.
Old 05-12-2014, 02:53 PM
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A permadeath mode would be interesting.
Old 05-12-2014, 07:38 PM
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A permadeath mode would be interesting.
....Wut? You only control one character, it's not like Fire Emblem, permadeath in Zelda means no continues... This is stupid...
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Old 05-12-2014, 08:46 PM
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....Wut? You only control one character, it's not like Fire Emblem, permadeath in Zelda means no continues... This is stupid...
Not really. I have not died once in my hero mode walkthrough or Windwaker HD. it could be a means of rewarding skilled players with a more detailed backstory and such.
Old 05-12-2014, 08:53 PM
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Chicken survival mode when Nintendo?
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:19 PM
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Not really. I have not died once in my hero mode walkthrough or Windwaker HD. it could be a means of rewarding skilled players with a more detailed backstory and such.
It really won't bring that though. Permadeath really doesn't work in a game like Zelda where there are no random elements to it. It doe not "reward skilled players" it simply becomes annoying.
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