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Nintendo Creators Program (Beta)
Old 01-29-2015, 03:16 AM
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Website here

Not exactly sure if this applies to anyone but it looks like you can now legally earn ad money off of Nintendo-related content that you make.

A lot of divisive opinions about this apparently.
Old 01-29-2015, 04:23 AM
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Interesting. I wonder if that means Nintendo will step up their game on content ID claims on ad revenue then, because their current system is easy to avoid.
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Old 01-30-2015, 02:21 AM
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In most cases I don't think they deserve anything.
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Old 01-30-2015, 07:08 PM
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Some extra thoughts on the subject.

First off, the best argument I found against the idea is, interestingly enough, from pewdiepie. http://pewdie.tumblr.com/post/109571...ube-ad-revenue Actually a pretty decent and well thought out post, really surprised given who its from.

I mostly agree with him, When I watch people on youtube, it is almost never for the game, but for the people themselves. I didn't watch game grumps play wind waker because it was wind waker, I watched because it was game grumps. It's their personalities that run the content, not the game.

Beyond that though, from what I can tell, this isn't that big of a deal. From my understanding, the content ID system goes for music and menus(and even then, you can have the music for a specific amount of time before editing it out), so I'm not really sure what this program will accomplish aside from seeing who isn't good at editing out music and menus from a Let's Play :/

EDIT: An argument for this system that I'm thinking of is that it could potentially help people earn extra revenue since this theoretically let's you monetize youtube videos without the need of getting signed into networks like polaris or machinima, but IDK much on the subject, just a thought.
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Old 01-31-2015, 01:54 AM
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It just doesn't make any sense in most forms, since games are completely interactive and change user to user. It's like if Microsoft wanted money for watching someone paint the Mona Lisa in Paint, on youtube. Like, uh oh you showed us what paint is like, now we deserve your money. All it is, is a crash grab.

It would be nice if we could just give them an example of a world with out their games on youtube anymore, so much free publicity lost.
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Old 01-31-2015, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
It just doesn't make any sense in most forms, since games are completely interactive and change user to user. It's like if Microsoft wanted money for watching someone paint the Mona Lisa in Paint, on youtube. Like, uh oh you showed us what paint is like, now we deserve your money. All it is, is a crash grab.

It would be nice if we could just give them an example of a world with out their games on youtube anymore, so much free publicity lost.
That's not really an analogous comparison.

MS Paint is an application/tool like Adobe photoshop or Autodesk Maya.

A "Let's Play" takes nowhere near the amount of effort and creativity that digital art does.
Old 01-31-2015, 04:35 AM
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A "Let's Play" takes nowhere near the amount of effort and creativity that digital art does.
That's just not true. I'm not saying the average let's play is hard, but neither is the average persons drawings in MS Paint. There are games that take a ton of skill, time, and effort, that not everyone can mimic. Some of the glitches in speed runs are mind blowingly creative / complicated.

I don't think it's a one to one analogy however it's the point that the experience / interaction is different for each person. That makes it completely different than say, movies, or music.

Regardless, Nintendo doesn't deserve any money from it IMO. Haven't seen any compelling arguments for it.
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Old 01-31-2015, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Kinvara View Post
A "Let's Play" takes nowhere near the amount of effort and creativity that digital art does.
A good let's play is generally treated as an improv comedy show where the subject is video games. Being consistently funny/interesting/engaging throughout each episode is pretty difficult actually. The game itself is just a sideshow, a starting point for the main event.

And even then, Let's Plays are generally free marketing for the game involved. The argument that someone can simply watch a Let's Play and not need to buy the game makes no sense when stuff like this and this happen, proving the opposite to be true. We look at this program and how Nintendo is taking a cut of the money earned by what is essentially free marketing and it just seems greedy. They have every right to do this, but that doesn't mean they should.
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Old 01-31-2015, 06:53 PM
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Businesses always think in completely black and white when it comes to such things. Piracy is the same logic, every pirated game is lost sales. They don't look at the big picture, that piracy has plenty of advantages as well, in terms of publicity, and sales.

Example:
I pirated Fallout 3 on PC, beat it and a couple of the DLC's, then I proceeded to buy it on PS3 with all DLC, and again on PC with all DLC. Since I got to try it out for free, I bought it twice, and not only that I bought New Vegas on launch, I will preorder Fallout 4, and now I'm a huge fan probably for life, all because of a free copy I got. I probably would have never tried Fallout if I couldn't play it pirated. This doesn't include how often I constantly praised the game, in real life and online. Because of me 10+ more people could have bought it ( which I'm sure is true ), again, all because of the pirated game I downloaded. I pay for things I like, even if I can get them for free. Things like a good platform ( steam, or psn ), make me want to own a copy I always have at my disposal, so the services are nice as well.

The same can be said about Let's Play's, but with really even less risk at a lost sale. I'm sure some people might not buy the game because of a play through, however I would bet many more would, and even if not they will still probably talk about it.
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Old 01-31-2015, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
Businesses always think in completely black and white when it comes to such things. Piracy is the same logic, every pirated game is lost sales. They don't look at the big picture, that piracy has plenty of advantages as well, in terms of publicity, and sales.

Example:
I pirated Fallout 3 on PC, beat it and a couple of the DLC's, then I proceeded to buy it on PS3 with all DLC, and again on PC with all DLC. Since I got to try it out for free, I bought it twice, and not only that I bought New Vegas on launch, I will preorder Fallout 4, and now I'm a huge fan probably for life, all because of a free copy I got. I probably would have never tried Fallout if I couldn't play it pirated. This doesn't include how often I constantly praised the game, in real life and online. Because of me 10+ more people could have bought it ( which I'm sure is true ), again, all because of the pirated game I downloaded. I pay for things I like, even if I can get them for free. Things like a good platform ( steam, or psn ), make me want to own a copy I always have at my disposal, so the services are nice as well.

The same can be said about Let's Play's, but with really even less risk at a lost sale. I'm sure some people might not buy the game because of a play through, however I would bet many more would, and even if not they will still probably talk about it.
The thing is that a lot of people pirate, but then don't buy the game.
Old 01-31-2015, 07:01 PM
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The thing is that a lot of people pirate, but then don't buy the game.
But they still talk about it. That's what I'm saying, even if that's true, which I know it is, there still is plenty of publicity that the game may not have had. Also just because they didn't buy that title that time, doesn't mean they won't be interested in the sequel now, that has features that you can't enjoy in the pirated version. This is why I always find it a good idea for companies to have a bunch of great features that make people want to pay. Look at free to play models, they are a huge success!

The biggest game in the world you didn't have to pay for . ( LoL )
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Old 01-31-2015, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
That's just not true. I'm not saying the average let's play is hard, but neither is the average persons drawings in MS Paint. There are games that take a ton of skill, time, and effort, that not everyone can mimic. Some of the glitches in speed runs are mind blowingly creative / complicated.

I don't think it's a one to one analogy however it's the point that the experience / interaction is different for each person. That makes it completely different than say, movies, or music.

Regardless, Nintendo doesn't deserve any money from it IMO. Haven't seen any compelling arguments for it.
How is it not true? Saying that the average drawing in MS Paint is not good is like saying the average drawing in general is not good. It's just a tool like anything else.

I'd consider "speed runs" different from Let's Plays but even then I don't see why someone should get paid for it- let alone base a career on it.

Taking raw, unedited footage and talking over it takes very little effort and I don't see how people have made tons of money by simply making commentary over someone else's work.

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A good let's play is generally treated as an improv comedy show where the subject is video games. Being consistently funny/interesting/engaging throughout each episode is pretty difficult actually. The game itself is just a sideshow, a starting point for the main event.
Improv comedy shows are live performances and the people doing it have no idea what kind of subject/content they're going to perform ahead of time. Not really the same.
Old 02-01-2015, 12:48 AM
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Improv comedy shows are live performances and the people doing it have no idea what kind of subject/content they're going to perform ahead of time. Not really the same.
Its a show in which people are being humorous on the fly with no script, and the show is made or broken based off of the personalities of the people involved. That to me seems like the definition of "improv comedy". The fact that the subject is narrowed down to "video games" or isn't live doesn't really change that.
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Old 02-01-2015, 01:44 AM
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If somebody uploads an entire movie to YouTube with them commenting over it, it's going to get taken down. Would there be people who saw it and would want to watch the movie without the commentary on it after? Sure. But plenty of people would be perfectly fine just seeing it with the commentary.

The point is that they're still making money off of content they didn't create. From what I can tell, most of the popular people who do Let's Plays are of average or below average skill level with games, so they don't show a unique way of playing the games. And a lot of their commentary seems to be just saying out loud what a good number of people would be thinking while they're playing the game. The content of the video would not stand out on its on without the gameplay, it's as simple as that.

On the whole, "free advertising" bit. Generally, the type of games that Let's Plays help bring sales up on are small time indie games or games that got entirely unnoticed in the first place. Like without the existence of Let's Plays, these games would've gone entirely unnoticed and eventually people will tell their friends who don't watch Let's Plays about these games and the popularity will spread. If someone popular on YouTube uploads a video of them playing Mario, more people are already going to know what the game is. And they're may be people who are on the edge and can't decide whether or not to get the new Mario game or whatever and then just decide not to because "somebody I like on YouTube is doing a Let's Play of it, so I get to experience the game while watching a video of somebody I like at the same time."
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Old 02-01-2015, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by banjo3dsie View Post
Its a show in which people are being humorous on the fly with no script, and the show is made or broken based off of the personalities of the people involved. That to me seems like the definition of "improv comedy". The fact that the subject is narrowed down to "video games" or isn't live doesn't really change that.
It's not a matter of the subject being narrowed down to simply "video games" but to a specific game itself. If you know what specific game you're playing, it's not improv (plus you can avoid games that you can't personally think up material for).

Improv is entirely based around live performance. It's the whole point. If the audience is not responding well, you have to rethink what you're doing and go in a different direction. In Improv, you don't get the option to simply not upload a video if it ended up being boring/not funny.

But anyway...

This program should only apply to a select few who are using unedited footage throughout the bulk of their video. Edited videos will not be affected since they fall under Fair Use but I believe YT Content ID has issues differentiating between videos that are Fair Use and those that aren't.
Old 02-01-2015, 08:08 AM
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If somebody uploads an entire movie to YouTube with them commenting over it, it's going to get taken down. Would there be people who saw it and would want to watch the movie without the commentary on it after? Sure. But plenty of people would be perfectly fine just seeing it with the commentary.

The point is that they're still making money off of content they didn't create. From what I can tell, most of the popular people who do Let's Plays are of average or below average skill level with games, so they don't show a unique way of playing the games. And a lot of their commentary seems to be just saying out loud what a good number of people would be thinking while they're playing the game. The content of the video would not stand out on its on without the gameplay, it's as simple as that.

On the whole, "free advertising" bit. Generally, the type of games that Let's Plays help bring sales up on are small time indie games or games that got entirely unnoticed in the first place. Like without the existence of Let's Plays, these games would've gone entirely unnoticed and eventually people will tell their friends who don't watch Let's Plays about these games and the popularity will spread. If someone popular on YouTube uploads a video of them playing Mario, more people are already going to know what the game is. And they're may be people who are on the edge and can't decide whether or not to get the new Mario game or whatever and then just decide not to because "somebody I like on YouTube is doing a Let's Play of it, so I get to experience the game while watching a video of somebody I like at the same time."
But you get to experience watching the game, not playing it. There is a huge difference. You say that it's because they are making money of content they didn't create, but since each experience is unique, they actually did create their own unique content inside the game world.

Do Piano players pay the Piano maker for each performance that generates them money ( the skill and content is irrelevant )? I mean they are making money off something they didn't create right? They may have created the songs ( or unique play through ), but you're saying the Piano maker deserves the money because they created the product that allowed them to do so? I mean where does this stop? There are a million examples of how this logic just doesn't work in the real world.

In reality, the Piano player pays for the Piano, and any content he generates from the Piano, including profit, is exclusively his. Why should it be any different for us gamers?
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Old 02-01-2015, 10:11 AM
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I really don't think creating art and making music can be really equated to the same thing. Especially when it comes to people who aren't even good at video games? Should someone be paid to randomly bang keys on a piano? If you're going to compare a "unique playthrough" to music, I'd consider it more along the lines of a cover version than an actual new song. If the game's really linear, there's no real way of making a playthrough truly unique besides like finishing it faster. But even in a non-linear game, plenty of people are just satisfied with watching someone else playing than experiencing it for their own and I don't think just because you decided to record the screen while playing the game "your own way", it's really creating an amazingly unique thing. There are people who dedicate an amazing amount of time modding games and they usually aren't paid even though they're basically dedicated to really making games different
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Old 02-01-2015, 05:07 PM
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It doesn't have to be creative or unique though. It just has to be different to not be the same experience, and it's never the same.

And again banjo3dsie brought up a good point, it's not just the play through, its the users experience given too. Doesn't matter if he sucks, point is it's original, and buying the game should allow him to do with it as he wishes.

The creator did more work making the video than Nintendo. Nintendo's work was done when they created the game.

Let's not compare art then. You go to the Zoo, you pay the fee to get in. You record a bunch of cute animals, and one of them does something completely unique. All of a sudden your youtube video of it gets 1 billion hits. Does the Zoo demand money? No! because that's ridiculous. I hope this one makes more sense to you, because walking around at the zoo and recording doesn't take any skill, maybe just luck.

Nintendo does not deserve that money, just like the Zoo wouldn't.
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Old 02-01-2015, 06:50 PM
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These analogies don't make any sense.

The zoo didn't create the animals lol. They just house them. And people who happen to post cute animal videos aren't getting any money from it, typically.
Old 02-01-2015, 07:13 PM
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These analogies don't make any sense.

The zoo didn't create the animals lol. They just house them. And people who happen to post cute animal videos aren't getting any money from it, typically.
Yea I don't get that one either. The closest comparison to make would be pirating movies.
Old 02-01-2015, 07:36 PM
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These analogies don't make any sense.

The zoo didn't create the animals lol. They just house them. And people who happen to post cute animal videos aren't getting any money from it, typically.

You pay for the product, which is the zoo and everything in it. The Zoo put all the effort into building the structure, all the effort into getting the animals. No one said the zoo created the animals, but they put as much effort into making the zoo as making a game. Just because you record and make money off their work doesn't mean doesn't mean they are entitled to more money because you made money off of their creation. I don't know why you're bringing up the animals specifically, it's the concept of the zoo itself we are talking about here. You could easily change around this example to other things, like the wax museum, where they DID create the attractions inside. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMCT-NFymRY

Let's say that video got one billion and it showed the entire museum. Do they deserve the money from it? Or do you think it's quite different experiencing it for yourself?

I'm not talking about the specifics, but the concepts.

If my analogies aren't working for you I will keep trying to think of a way to better communicate it.
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Old 02-01-2015, 08:28 PM
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A museum/zoo isn't the same thing as a video game. (And lots of museums do ban filming/taking photos of the work inside.)

A video game is a completed creative work which includes music, art, modeling, programming, animation, etc.

I play games but I am also an artist. When I play a game, I'm experiencing someone else's creation- not creating my own. My player experience is shaped by the boundaries set up by the creators of the game. What I can and cannot do has been predetermined.

In art, people take inspiration all the time from others but the work must be able to stand on its own or you're just ripping off someone else. To me, a Let's Play borrows too heavily from someone else's work to be considered its own thing. It's different from a review which edits the footage and adds insightful commentary (and is legally protected under the Fair Use clause).
Old 02-01-2015, 09:17 PM
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Again, I never said it was the same thing. It's the concept you are missing.

And as far as art/museums banning photo graphs or videos, that practice is becoming less common. In fact some places are actually completely changing, the Riijksmuseum uploaded all of their art in high quality downloadable files without copyright restrictions. They have not noticed a single loss of revenue, in art sales, to regular users, commercial, ect. The tourist shop has seen 0 decline in sales as well, and it's received a ton of positive attention, a lot of which is purely because of how available it is. You can take any photo's or videos yourself! Art cannot be changed, it would be more of a risk for art to be shared like this over games, which are never played exactly the same.

Sauce: http://openglam.org/2013/02/27/case-...public-domain/

I'll be the first to admit we could have more studies done on this concept in video games, if that's what it takes for Nintendo to realize it's beneficial.
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Old 02-01-2015, 11:54 PM
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I don't really get the zoo analogy either. I also don't like the movie analogy. Movies and video games aren't the same thing. Watching someone commentate over a movie is not the same thing as watching someone commentate over a game.
Nor is it like "pirating a movie". There's a blatant difference between watching someone comment over guardians of the galaxy and watching someone play pokemon. I've never once watched an LP and thought "well now I don't need to buy the game", in fact, the opposite is true. I've bought plenty of games due to watching LPs, thinking the game was fun, and purchasing it. To me, that's the companies compensation, the fact that the game was just shown off to thousands upon thousands of people, and plenty of them just bought the game off of the recommendation of their favorite LPer.
EDIT: To jump off the debate real quickly. I've been told(but no source was provided) that games like Pokemon and Smash Bros(aka not in house Nintendo games) are exempt from this program. Anyone have any source confirming/denying that? Can't find that anywhere on their site.
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Old 02-02-2015, 01:29 AM
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Again, I never said it was the same thing. It's the concept you are missing.

And as far as art/museums banning photo graphs or videos, that practice is becoming less common. In fact some places are actually completely changing, the Riijksmuseum uploaded all of their art in high quality downloadable files without copyright restrictions. They have not noticed a single loss of revenue, in art sales, to regular users, commercial, ect. The tourist shop has seen 0 decline in sales as well, and it's received a ton of positive attention, a lot of which is purely because of how available it is. You can take any photo's or videos yourself! Art cannot be changed, it would be more of a risk for art to be shared like this over games, which are never played exactly the same.

Sauce: http://openglam.org/2013/02/27/case-...public-domain/

I'll be the first to admit we could have more studies done on this concept in video games, if that's what it takes for Nintendo to realize it's beneficial.
I should note that museums ban photography/video primarily because it disrupts the atmosphere of the gallery (it's the same with loud noises) or an artist requested that no photos/film be taken of their art.

Either way museums have nothing to do with games really.

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I don't really get the zoo analogy either. I also don't like the movie analogy. Movies and video games aren't the same thing. Watching someone commentate over a movie is not the same thing as watching someone commentate over a game.
Nor is it like "pirating a movie". There's a blatant difference between watching someone comment over guardians of the galaxy and watching someone play pokemon. I've never once watched an LP and thought "well now I don't need to buy the game", in fact, the opposite is true. I've bought plenty of games due to watching LPs, thinking the game was fun, and purchasing it. To me, that's the companies compensation, the fact that the game was just shown off to thousands upon thousands of people, and plenty of them just bought the game off of the recommendation of their favorite LPer.
EDIT: To jump off the debate real quickly. I've been told(but no source was provided) that games like Pokemon and Smash Bros(aka not in house Nintendo games) are exempt from this program. Anyone have any source confirming/denying that? Can't find that anywhere on their site.
The list of games is here

Smash and pokemon aren't on the list. So you are correct.
Old 02-02-2015, 02:37 AM
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I dunno. I mean if the game does look REALLY good, it's going to encourage people to buy it. I don't really watch much Let's Plays but if I can't decide to buy a game that I think just looks decent, now that I can just watch somebody online play through it, I feel less inclined to play it and try it for myself. Plus in general, I like to experience games as completely new experiences. If I've already watched somebody else play through the game, I feel like it takes a significant part of the enjoyment out of it for me. I know not everybody feels that way but I'm sure plenty of people do.
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Old 02-02-2015, 03:02 AM
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Either way museums have nothing to do with games really.
You are looking at this way too simplistically ( again, concepts ), but if you feel that Nintendo deserves money for this then state your argument.

I support the youtubers who put in work, little or not, at the cost of no additional effort from Nintendo. If people won't buy the game because they watched the "Let's play" it probably wasn't a very good offering to begin with. You can make the argument that it's lost sales, but you can make a million arguments that it also promotes sales as well. Personally I never watch let's plays, but I watch reviews constantly, and I've seen how much harm these types of laws do to people who put in a lot of time and effort to make a living doing this. The way I see it is Nintendo is just hurting their own fans and free publicity. I'd love for them to stop getting that publicity to get what they deserve.

Added after 12 minutes:

Here is Dodger's view on it. I don't entirely agree but she has her own points against Nintendo's plan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChY8FcMCbdg#t=463

Lot's of people feel like not even bothering anymore. If I was a youtuber reviewing/playing lots of games I'd probably be skipping a lot of Nintendo products too. Just seems like lost sales to me, even if you think they do have the right.
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Last edited by DoomDash; 02-02-2015 at 03:02 AM.
Old 02-02-2015, 03:26 AM
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Reviews are legally protected under the Fair Use clause and I don't see why they should be affected by the program.

Reviewers are not affected by the Program. It's Let's Players.
Old 04-05-2015, 02:27 AM
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