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Avengers: Age of Ultron
Old 05-01-2015, 02:20 AM
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Old 05-01-2015, 02:23 AM
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So are spoilers okay? What's the rule here?
Old 05-01-2015, 02:33 AM
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Of course spoil tag any events that have not been already showed in trailers/tv spots. Character reveals, possible death scenes, plot that got leak some time ago etc etc.
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Old 05-01-2015, 03:21 AM
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Reviews for the movie are largely mixed for good reason depending on the person watching, but it's definitely an easy movie to watch through, and is certainly not awful.

Spoiler!
Old 05-01-2015, 05:05 PM
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It was entertaining- a lot of good jokes in it. But it definitely lacked some of the deeper, touching moments from other Marvel films like Cap 2. There were some weird character choices/developments that didn't sit well with me.

Maybe it's just that I'm so familiar with VFX work but some of the action scenes looked pretty fake to me too.

There is no scene after the credits either. So if you're planning to see the movie don't bother waiting.

I hope the rumors are true and that Joss Whedon is not going to do anymore MCU films. He just isn't that good.
Old 05-01-2015, 05:51 PM
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Friends and I are going to see it tonight. Loved the first avengers, so I can't wait for this one!
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Old 05-01-2015, 05:57 PM
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I hope the rumors are true and that Joss Whedon is not going to do anymore MCU films. He just isn't that good.
Not rumors. Whedon has stated he is tired of working on Avengers if only because it's a lot of work. Of course, I imagine they could still ask him for creative input in future Marvel films, but he's stated against taking up another lead role in directing.
Old 05-02-2015, 12:53 AM
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Just watched the movie, enjoyed every minute of it. Good humor, good action, although nothing really unique or innovative.

All and all, fun movie. Didn't regret it.
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Old 05-02-2015, 05:16 PM
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How did everyone feel about the

Spoiler!
Old 05-02-2015, 05:46 PM
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How did everyone feel about the

Spoiler!
The same way.
Old 05-02-2015, 11:51 PM
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How did everyone feel about the

Spoiler!
Spoiler!
[/QUOTE]
Old 05-03-2015, 12:13 AM
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How did everyone feel about the

Spoiler!
Spoiler!
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Old 05-03-2015, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Kinvara View Post
It was entertaining- a lot of good jokes in it. But it definitely lacked some of the deeper, touching moments from other Marvel films like Cap 2. There were some weird character choices/developments that didn't sit well with me.

Maybe it's just that I'm so familiar with VFX work but some of the action scenes looked pretty fake to me too.

There is no scene after the credits either. So if you're planning to see the movie don't bother waiting.

I hope the rumors are true and that Joss Whedon is not going to do anymore MCU films. He just isn't that good.
There most certainly was a scene after the credits, though just a small teaser
Spoiler!


Anyway, on to the actual movie. I liked it quite a bit but after it ended it was like something was missing, I wouldn't place it among Marvel's best work really.

Spoiler!
Old 05-03-2015, 10:32 AM
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Spoiler!
I mean they sorta provided reasons for this

Spoiler!
Old 05-03-2015, 01:56 PM
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I mean they sorta provided reasons for this

Spoiler!
Spoiler!
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Old 05-03-2015, 02:59 PM
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There most certainly was a scene after the credits, though just a small teaser
Spoiler!
No, that was not after the credits. It was near the beginning of them after the list of the main cast.

My friends and several other audience members waited until all the credits rolled. When it finally ended and there was no post-credits scene, I heard a guy say "**** you, Joss Whedon." Best.
Old 05-03-2015, 03:40 PM
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No, that was not after the credits. It was near the beginning of them after the list of the main cast.

My friends and several other audience members waited until all the credits rolled. When it finally ended and there was no post-credits scene, I heard a guy say "**** you, Joss Whedon." Best.
My response was "Oh how nice, they put the sequence before the credits to be polite" and I hope other marvel movies follow in the same formula, I hate waiting at the end of the credits for one little scene.
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Old 05-03-2015, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinvara View Post
No, that was not after the credits. It was near the beginning of them after the list of the main cast.

My friends and several other audience members waited until all the credits rolled. When it finally ended and there was no post-credits scene, I heard a guy say "**** you, Joss Whedon." Best.
Lol, Whedon had already said that there was no post-credits scene. The Spiderman scene that was "leaked" was debunked in less than an hour. That guy should really had read up.
Old 05-06-2015, 01:47 AM
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Lol, Whedon had already said that there was no post-credits scene. The Spiderman scene that was "leaked" was debunked in less than an hour. That guy should really had read up.
No one should have to "read up" on anything before going to see a film.

I didn't want to spoil too much of the film for myself so I purposely didn't watch/read that many articles on it.

But Joss Whedon is already terrible with or without the after-credits scene.
Old 05-06-2015, 02:56 AM
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But Joss Whedon is already terrible with or without the after-credits scene.
I don't want to sound rude, but I feel like you have something against Joss Whedon. Almost every post you've made in this thread has had some direct comment on him, even when it doesn't seem necessary.
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Old 05-10-2015, 09:19 PM
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I don't want to sound rude, but I feel like you have something against Joss Whedon. Almost every post you've made in this thread has had some direct comment on him, even when it doesn't seem necessary.
Ha, you aren't wrong.

He's just been a jerk for a long time now and even the friends I know that have been fans of his work since Buffy are tired of his schtick.

There's a lot of criticism regarding how he handled AoU especially in regards to characterization. The biggest one is how Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were originally Romani/Jewish but in the films they're now a part of Hydra aka Neo-Nazi organization. That's kind of messed up.
Old 05-10-2015, 10:16 PM
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Ha, you aren't wrong.

He's just been a jerk for a long time now and even the friends I know that have been fans of his work since Buffy are tired of his schtick.

There's a lot of criticism regarding how he handled AoU especially in regards to characterization. The biggest one is how Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were originally Romani/Jewish but in the films they're now a part of Hydra aka Neo-Nazi organization. That's kind of messed up.
People looked waaaaay too hard into the Neo Nazi thing lol. They volunteered for the hydra project because it would give them enough strength to get revenge on Tony. They weren't "team hydra" because if they were they wouldn't defect from them so easily. The beginning of the movie clearly showed they had their own agenda and they explain it in plain language throughout the movie. If they were really neo nazis they would go down for Hydra like literally every neo nazi in the cinematic timeline. However they didn't, and put their lust for revenge aside for the greater good. It seems people are so hellbent on finding something to knock the guy about that they miss that important part of the film.
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Old 05-11-2015, 12:10 AM
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People looked waaaaay too hard into the Neo Nazi thing lol. They volunteered for the hydra project because it would give them enough strength to get revenge on Tony. They weren't "team hydra" because if they were they wouldn't defect from them so easily. The beginning of the movie clearly showed they had their own agenda and they explain it in plain language throughout the movie. If they were really neo nazis they would go down for Hydra like literally every neo nazi in the cinematic timeline. However they didn't, and put their lust for revenge aside for the greater good. It seems people are so hellbent on finding something to knock the guy about that they miss that important part of the film.
Thats not what I'm saying.

The film erased the characters' Jewish/Romani heritage.

Then the writers gave them a backstory where they join an organization that worked towards the extermination of Jewish/Romani people.
Old 05-11-2015, 11:01 AM
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Spoiler!
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Old 05-12-2015, 12:48 AM
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So? I don't understand why that's anything to get worked up over, I don't really see a character's race as being important to the character itself, it's just a circumstantial thing to me I guess. Obviously you don't seriously think this was a malicious decision on the part of the writers, so what's the problem?
The characters' particular race/heritage was pretty pivotal in their original story where the mother of the twins was literally a refugee from Nazi persecution during the Holocaust.

A character's race/ethnicity is always a major factor to consider as it affects how they interact within society. It is very important.

Intent is kind of irrelevant. People can still do harm even without intending to. Erasing the ethnicity of two prominent Romani characters is not cool when the Romani as an ethnic group still face considerable amount of persecution.
Old 05-12-2015, 12:41 PM
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The characters' particular race/heritage was pretty pivotal in their original story where the mother of the twins was literally a refugee from Nazi persecution during the Holocaust.
Thank you for explaining this.

Like I said I am coming from a position of ignorance in regards to the characters in the comics. That's an interesting back story, but as you no doubt realize it's quite loaded and would require a lot more screen time available to do it justice, especially for such a sensitive topic.

I can understand being annoyed at the film not including that back story on the basis of it being an interesting back story that fans might of wanted to have seen played out on screen, but I don't quite understand how it being omitted for the sake of efficiency warrants some type of moral concern or does any harm. From what I can gleam, the characters were adapted to the film because they have cool powers and introduce a sibling/anti-hero dynamic. This back story hasn't been disrespectfully executed or desecrated, it just hasn't been used, and I have a slight hunch that the latter was done to avoid the former.

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A character's race/ethnicity is always a major factor to consider as it affects how they interact within society. It is very important.
Is it though? I still fail to see why ethnicity alone should be important to a character. I don't really assume things about someone just because I notice they are of a certain race, so if I see a Black character and a White character the only assumptions I make about either of them is that one is black and the other is white. Only when details are revealed do I tend to make any judgement.

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Intent is kind of irrelevant. People can still do harm even without intending to. Erasing the ethnicity of two prominent Romani characters is not cool when the Romani as an ethnic group still face considerable amount of persecution.
Firstly, can you elaborate on what you mean by "harm" What harm? What harm has a writer choosing not to use certain subject matter from comic source material done to the Romani people? Has a silent omission truly been an act of disrespect towards an entire race? Has it added to, perpetuated, or made lite of their persecution? I'm just not seeing the connection.

And when you say "Erasing", what are you suggesting? In me that evokes a concentrated effort of removal, rather than a simple omission. Do you mean erase or omit?

I (as you) don't think it's very productive to rely on films to shape the way we view the world around us. I personally don't shoulder that much responsibility on a movie to pay respect to an entire race of people, especially one as fantastic (lit.) and tightly packed as this, even more so if the supposed act of respect was the acknowledgment of a couple character's race. I think that would be more for stuff like Memorials and history classes. I think taking offense to something like this is somewhat artificial and overreaching, but perhaps you can enlighten me and iron out some assumptions I might have made.

EDIT: Completely forgot about this point and how it relates to the rest of my argument:

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The film erased the characters' Jewish/Romani heritage.

Then the writers gave them a backstory where they join an organization that worked towards the extermination of Jewish/Romani people.
Would you have preferred they hadn't erased (or omitted depending on where you stand) their heritage and then made them work for Hydra? Should these characters not have been involved with Hydra at all? Also, isn't Hydra just connected to the Nazis? I don't remember Hydra saying much about harming Jewish/Romani people in the movies, they seem more focused on not trusting humanity with its own freedom and creating super humans.
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Old 05-13-2015, 05:11 AM
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Thank you for explaining this.

Like I said I am coming from a position of ignorance in regards to the characters in the comics. That's an interesting back story, but as you no doubt realize it's quite loaded and would require a lot more screen time available to do it justice, especially for such a sensitive topic.

I can understand being annoyed at the film not including that back story on the basis of it being an interesting back story that fans might of wanted to have seen played out on screen, but I don't quite understand how it being omitted for the sake of efficiency warrants some type of moral concern or does any harm. From what I can gleam, the characters were adapted to the film because they have cool powers and introduce a sibling/anti-hero dynamic. This back story hasn't been disrespectfully executed or desecrated, it just hasn't been used, and I have a slight hunch that the latter was done to avoid the former.
Don't get me wrong. I do like the characters as they are in the film but their backstory was pretty rushed.

Like, Quicksilver just goes into a monologue to Ultron about their past. It wasn't too terrible but it's a film and the rule is usually "show don't tell".

As much as I love most of Marvel's current cast, these films are starting to get bloated. The main antagonists should have gotten more development than they did.

Quote:
Is it though? I still fail to see why ethnicity alone should be important to a character. I don't really assume things about someone just because I notice they are of a certain race, so if I see a Black character and a White character the only assumptions I make about either of them is that one is black and the other is white. Only when details are revealed do I tend to make any judgement.
Race doesn't determine a character's personality.

It does affect how others/society within the story interact with the character. Race is one of many factors like sexuality, gender, age, health, etc.

Quote:
Firstly, can you elaborate on what you mean by "harm" What harm? What harm has a writer choosing not to use certain subject matter from comic source material done to the Romani people? Has a silent omission truly been an act of disrespect towards an entire race? Has it added to, perpetuated, or made lite of their persecution? I'm just not seeing the connection.

And when you say "Erasing", what are you suggesting? In me that evokes a concentrated effort of removal, rather than a simple omission. Do you mean erase or omit?

I (as you) don't think it's very productive to rely on films to shape the way we view the world around us. I personally don't shoulder that much responsibility on a movie to pay respect to an entire race of people, especially one as fantastic (lit.) and tightly packed as this, even more so if the supposed act of respect was the acknowledgment of a couple character's race. I think that would be more for stuff like Memorials and history classes. I think taking offense to something like this is somewhat artificial and overreaching, but perhaps you can enlighten me and iron out some assumptions I might have made.
Media in general has a lot of influence on society. I will attempt to elaborate by what I mean by "erasure".

Spoiler!


Quote:
EDIT: Completely forgot about this point and how it relates to the rest of my argument:

Would you have preferred they hadn't erased (or omitted depending on where you stand) their heritage and then made them work for Hydra? Should these characters not have been involved with Hydra at all? Also, isn't Hydra just connected to the Nazis? I don't remember Hydra saying much about harming Jewish/Romani people in the movies, they seem more focused on not trusting humanity with its own freedom and creating super humans.
There are a lot of options and I don't think there is one right answer from a narrative standpoint. Ideally, it would have been preferred to have kept the unique heritage of the original characters for the reason stated above.

Hydra as it exist as a part of the Marvel canon is very much in line with traditional Nazi ideals. While Marvel avoids any explicit racist messages in a effort to remain apolitical, Hydra's agenda of creating a superhuman race and global supremacy are essentially a watered-down version of Nazism.
Old 05-13-2015, 12:09 PM
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Don't get me wrong. I do like the characters as they are in the film but their backstory was pretty rushed.

Like, Quicksilver just goes into a monologue to Ultron about their past. It wasn't too terrible but it's a film and the rule is usually "show don't tell".

As much as I love most of Marvel's current cast, these films are starting to get bloated. The main antagonists should have gotten more development than they did.
Yeah, I pretty much agree with all this. These are very reasonable critiques.

I'll be honest with you, I typed up a bunch of stuff in rebuttal to the other stuff you said and then accidentally X'd out the window, so I'll just be brief. Forgive me if I seem blunt.

Quote:
It does affect how others/society within the story interact with the character.
I don't interact with people on the basis of their race, I don't know anybody who does that, and whenever I see a character doing that it's to establish that they're racist.

I'm personally of the opinion that society affects media more than media affects society, so we're coming at this from very different angles and could go backwards and forwards all day. What you wrote about BPD was very interesting, though I should make clear that a race and a disorder are not equivalent in their implications and the base assumptions you can reasonably make. I think your hypothetical situation would be worth getting upset over, but I still think it would be more proper to criticize the film for lacking the complexity of its source material than pretending it's had more than a neutral effect on that group. You say it best here:

Quote:
it would have eliminated an opportunity to present a positive portrayal of BPD for once
That's what it is, a missed opportunity, not a harmful act. At the end of the day society at large is going to get its guidance from this and not this.

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If popular culture had no influence on public view/opinion
I'm sure it does have some influence, but only in the way of subtly reinforcing the opinions/views of those who have already made up their minds. We can't rely on or police movies made for light entertainment in order to change people's minds. This will dispel ignorance, not this.

Quote:
then why do totalitarian regimes put so much effort into prohibiting and controlling what kind of films can be seen and what kind of books can be read?
Because they don't want anything to contradict their black and white propaganda, which is made to be taken as fact. When you want a firm grasp on the minds of an entire population, reality can't be fluid. A totalitarian regime is a horrible system and all it takes is a little dose of reality to make people realize that, otherwise they just accept it as the way it is.

Anyway, I'm starting to derail this thread so I'll just say that I really appreciate you elaborating on your opinion here and it's given me a better understanding your side of the issue, so thank you.

Back on topic:

WASN'T IT COOL WHEN THEY WERE ALL SHOOTING LASER BEAMS AT HIM AT THE SAME TIME???!!!!
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Old 05-13-2015, 06:56 PM
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Did anyone know who The Vision was before they saw AoU?

I think he was at his most popular in the 1970s. It's weird though how in the comics:
Spoiler!


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-snip-
Have you ever been abused because of your race, gender, illness, etc.? If not, then I think it's fair to say your experiences are far different from someone that has experienced these things. I find it highly unlikely that you have never met someone that is bigoted in some fashion and/or that you live in a society that offers equal opportunity to all regardless of any factors. And even if you did, by definition personal experiences don't apply to everyone.

The average person doesn't regularly read scholarly articles on mental disorders, race, gender etc. people do consume a ton of entertainment. Like you said media works by "subtly reinforcing the opinions/views of those who have already made up their minds." This is exactly the point I'm making. People have negative attitudes about certain groups and that is reflected in the media they create. That media in turn influences and reinforces these attitudes. It's a cycle. You don't have to live in a totalitarian regime to have a skewed perception of reality. This is what a lot of people miss out on. They think bigotry is something that happens somewhere else at it's most extreme and deny the insidious, subtle acts of bigotry that make up their everyday experience.

Well, that's all I have to say on the matter in this thread at least. This is too complex an issue to discuss in an Avengers thread. lol