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Confederate Flag Controversy
Old 08-22-2015, 06:39 AM
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Default Confederate Flag Controversy

I live the Southern US and this subject comes up often in the local news. A lot of people declaring that their "Freedom of Speech" is being violated just because state governments and certain companies are no longer supporting the Confederate Battle flag.

I was bored one day so I got into a discussion with some pro-flag people and it ended like this (I'm the blacked out name):


Yeah, you can display whatever symbols you want to. It's still a symbol heavily associated with racism and violence.

(If you're not American and are curious about it, I will try to explain the history of it all as succinctly as I can.)
Old 08-22-2015, 07:04 AM
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The confederate flag isn't a symbol of racism. It's a symbol of states rights. It's just be turned into a symbol for racism sadly. My grandfather flew the confederate flag his entire life since we have people in our family who fought and died for the south in the civil war. Now that it's outlawed he can't. In my opinion that's kind of messed up. But oh well. I'm sure I'll be bashed for bringing this up. Just my two cents.
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Last edited by Snail; 08-22-2015 at 07:06 AM.
Old 08-22-2015, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snail View Post
The confederate flag isn't a symbol of racism. It's a symbol of states rights. It's just be turned into a symbol for racism sadly. My grandfather flew the confederate flag his entire life since we have people in our family who fought and died for the south in the civil war. Now that it's outlawed he can't. In my opinion that's kind of messed up. But oh well. I'm sure I'll be bashed for bringing this up. Just my two cents.
It's a symptom of the growing progressive culture that perception trumps all other factors regardless of its accuracy. I feel for your grandfather and it's something we're all going to suffer from until the pendulum starts swinging back the other way.
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Old 08-22-2015, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snail View Post
The confederate flag isn't a symbol of racism. It's a symbol of states rights. It's just be turned into a symbol for racism sadly. My grandfather flew the confederate flag his entire life since we have people in our family who fought and died for the south in the civil war. Now that it's outlawed he can't. In my opinion that's kind of messed up. But oh well. I'm sure I'll be bashed for bringing this up. Just my two cents.
What law has been passed where he can't fly the flag? I've been seeing the flag more than ever now.

I have ancestors who fought in the Civil War too. (Both sides) I don't really feel the need to fly a flag for people I never knew and who would more than likely hate me for being half-Malaysian and not heterosexual.

Even disregarding it's Civil War history, it was resurrected as an anti-Civil Rights symbol only 50 years ago. Here are some images from Alabama during the Selma protests in 1965:






(George Wallace, Governor of AL during this period and pro-segregationist.)

It is a racist symbol.

I will go into much greater detail if you desire. US history is one of my interests.
Old 08-22-2015, 03:06 PM
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The flag should have never been flown over the SC State House simply because there is no existing association between SC and the Confederacy. I'm okay with how it was later flown over the Civil War memorial on the grounds but I can see why people were upset. It was obviously a decision forced by compromise rather than a true desire to honor Civil War soldiers. They made the right choice by completely removing it.

What makes me sick though is all these stores that don't care one bit about the issue but try to publish their holiness by making these statements of disapproval and banning the flag. They began selling the flag because they were popular and now they aren't because they're unpopular, that's it. Nobody believes that they grew some principles out of nowhere and now have a moral problem with selling the flag.

Anyway, I think the Confederate flag represents rebellion more than anything else. People are tired of DC making all the decisions for the whole country. They want power back into the hands of state and local government. That is also why people hold to the flag even stronger now. To let it die away would be an act of submission in their eyes.
Old 08-22-2015, 03:30 PM
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I find it a racism symbol and dont like it.
Old 08-22-2015, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scizor View Post
What makes me sick though is all these stores that don't care one bit about the issue but try to publish their holiness by making these statements of disapproval and banning the flag. They began selling the flag because they were popular and now they aren't because they're unpopular, that's it. Nobody believes that they grew some principles out of nowhere and now have a moral problem with selling the flag.
You could say the same thing about LGBT+ with all the rainbow stuff.
Old 08-23-2015, 11:42 PM
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I studied a lot of American history in my undergrad, I always had a sweet spot for the South. It just seemed like such a cool, charming place. You know, except for the whole racism/slavery thing. The Confederate flag has definitely become the international white trash/hick symbol. You see them everywhere in Canada too, but it's always uneducated, white rural people who hang them in the back window of their old pickup trucks. Usually, they have no connection to the South and the Civil War (but, it's true that many Southern families left to live in Canada after the war, so there could possibly be some familial ties, but that's just giving these people the benefit of the doubt). I'm sorry, I respect history and other cultures, but this flag symbolized an oppressive and racist society, so yes, I am a little judgemental when I see people supporting it.
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Old 09-12-2015, 04:09 AM
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I ended up having a falling out with a friend.

They posted a video about hate crimes against Muslim and Sikh Americans since 9/11. (My family is predominately Muslim so this is a very personal issue.) But that wasn't the problem.

She used the video as a prop to dismiss concerns over the Confederate flag. Paraphrasing here: "why complain about a piece of fabric when people are getting beaten???!!"

This is just really hurtful about what my family and I have experienced. It's not like those are two separate issues. While acts of hate-related violence alone are terrible, the flag is a symbol of that violence and racial hatred.

I posted a couple of comments to try to explain how this made me feel but she deleted them. This wasn't the first time that she has done this. I told her that I would disconnect her from my social media accounts, since she wasn't interested in having a discussion. I didn't block her. She can message me if she wants to actually chat with me.
Old 09-12-2015, 05:15 AM
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My opinion is the government should not censor this in anyway. People need to see all of of our past mistakes and learn from it. A company can do whatever they want with topics like these, so the free speech right does not apply to them.

There will always be those who truly believe that they are correct and preach it to others. In the end, education will steer you clear from imbeciles like you did with your friend, kin.
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Old 09-12-2015, 05:28 AM
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I don't think anyone is saying that hicks cant keep flying confederate flags and wearing stained confederate flag wife beaters, the argument was that it shouldn't be flown at a government run building because its a symbol of racism associated with like probably the worst thing to happen on american soil ever
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Old 09-12-2015, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
I don't think anyone is saying that hicks cant keep flying confederate flags and wearing stained confederate flag wife beaters, the argument was that it shouldn't be flown at a government run building because its a symbol of racism associated with like probably the worst thing to happen on american soil ever
I've honestly tried talking to the pro-confederate flag people in an attempt to understand them.

I stick to primary source documents so there isn't any bias. The newspapers, letters, speeches, etc. from that time period point to slavery as the major issue behind the secession.

Even the declaration of secession for the various Confederate states literally say that slavery was the reason they are seceding.

They pretty much think that any document that points to slavery or racism as the cause of the Civil War is made up by the Google or the Yankees.

Which is ironic, considering how the KKK spent decades altering the narrative of the Civil War so that they could earn sympathy for the Confederacy. See Birth of a Nation for a notorious example.
Old 09-12-2015, 10:18 AM
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It's definitely a tough topic for anyone to touch on. Don't get me wrong, I am completely against censorship, but when literature/practices/cultures become focused on hate and opressing other people's cultures/religions, that's when the line should be drawn. Hate is contagious and spreads easily to people who are angry and isolated. I've even seen people driving around here in Germany with the Confederate flag in their car window. Is this necessary? Not really. I don't think the flag should be banned and made illegal, however I just kind of get the feeling that people, at the very least, know what morals and values they are supporting when they fly this flag, even if it's not meant to be out of hate/racism. I took a literature course on Uncle Tom's Cabin last semester, and was planning to take another one this semester but it's only offered to BA students so I plan to sit in. Racism and slavery are obviously the two central themes in the book. Seriously though, just put two and two together or pick up a piece of post-Civil War American literature. Or just pick up a dictionary and search the meaning of 'empathy'.
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Old 09-12-2015, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
I've even seen people driving around here in Germany with the Confederate flag in their car window. Is this necessary?.
@Rich.

Those are literally white supremacists. The Nazi swastika is banned in Germany so symbols like the Confederate flag are used instead. source

Please stay safe.
Old 09-12-2015, 10:32 PM
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The Confederate flag is now a symbol being used to target southern White people for Violence. So if you fly it, you are now a target. Of course there is an abundance of idiots out there that choose to be blind about what is actually happening in this country.
Old 09-13-2015, 08:20 AM
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Two flags from history are touchy subjects - this one and the one Germany used from 1933 - 1945. Anytime a country loses a war their flag is not held in high esteem any longer.
Old 09-14-2015, 03:12 PM
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Germany is a really safe place, guns are really hard to get a hold of. It's also really tolerant and liberal in many aspects. The East however has been having many giant protests against muslims and the Turkish-Germans/Turkish immigrants. Then with the refugee thing in Syria, there is probably going to be some tension there too. I'm not an expert though, and this is probably a topic to be discussed elsewhere.
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Last edited by Rich; 09-14-2015 at 03:18 PM. Reason: I suck at spelling
Old 10-02-2015, 01:09 AM
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I was talking with some people who go to counter-protest Confederate flag rallies in the area where I live. (They are white.)

They have noted that nearly every rally they've been to there have been white supremacists- specifically those from the Aryan Renaissance Society. They have been called "race traitor", "n____r lover" etc.

I'm mixed race so according to white supremacists I shouldn't even exist so I'll try to be careful even though I'm not particularly afraid of them.
Old 10-24-2015, 10:50 PM
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A town close to me (Greeneville, TN) had a commissioner make a proposal to raise the Confederate flag on the courthouse. The decision failed to pass (20-1). The one vote yes being the commissioner who proposed it in the first place.

The Confederate and Neo-Confederate Reader: The "Great Truth" about the "Lost Cause" is a collection of primary source documents that outline how slavery was the primary motivator behind the civil war but also how neo-confederates attempted to skew history in their favor.

Quote:
Most Americans hold basic misconceptions about the Confederacy, the Civil War, and the actions of subsequent neo-Confederates. For example, two thirds of Americans--including most history teachers--think the Confederate States seceded for "states' rights." This error persists because most have never read the key documents about the Confederacy. These documents have always been there. When South Carolina seceded, it published "Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union." The document actually opposes states' rights. Its authors argue that Northern states were ignoring the rights of slave owners as identified by Congress and in the Constitution. Similarly, Mississippi's "Declaration of the Immediate Causes ???" says, "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery--the greatest material interest of the world." Later documents in this collection show how neo-Confederates obfuscated this truth, starting around 1890. The evidence also points to the centrality of race in neo-Confederate thought even today and to the continuing importance of neo-Confederate ideas in American political life. The 150th anniversary of secession and civil war provides a moment for all Americans to read these documents, properly set in context by award-winning sociologist and historian James W. Loewen and co-editor, Edward H. Sebesta, to put in perspective the mythology of the Old South.
Old 10-24-2015, 11:03 PM
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Very interesting!
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